Posts by moggy lover

4

A bible I picked up, from 1901, has Jehovah in OT more then NWT

by EndofMysteries in

i was at a thrift store, and picking up some different bibles to compare, this is "the holy bible containing the old and new testaments translated out of the original tongues being the version set forth in ad 1611 compared with the most ancient authorites and revised ad 1881-1885 newly edited by the american revision committee ad 1901 standard edition new york thomas nelson and sons 381-385 fourth avenue george e day secretary of the old testament company and j henry thayer secretary of the new testament company, copyright 1901 by international council of religious education".

anyway, i was surprised to find a bible outside of nwt with jehovah everywhere in the ot, however i haven't found it once in the nt on this bible.

was this bible associated with the jw's at the turn of the century?.

moggy lover

The Bible translation you are referring to is called the American Standard Version [ASV] which was published in 1901 as a result of a copyright agreement with the Revised Version translation committee.

In 1881, when what was called the Westcott and Hort NT text was published, it was decided to revise the KJV which was based on an inferior text. The Revised Version Translation Committee was made up of British and American scholars. During the course of the work certain minor disagreements arose as to the way the translation should proceed. On the one hand the Americans were more radical than their British counterparts who wanted a minimalist revision that kept as close to the KJV as possible.

The Americans saw themselves as bringing a fresh approach to the traditional renderings of the KJV. One of the areas of disagreement was the use of Jehovah in the OT as consistently as possible, whereas the British revisers wished to keep to the traditional LORD. It was agreed that when the British edition of the Revised Version [RV] was published in 1881 the Americans would hold off from publishing their version till twenty years had passed. This term expired in 1901 when what is now referred to as the ASV was released.

In 1944, after 43 years of ownership, Thomas Nelson sold the masthead for publication of this version to the Watchtower and since then the Watchtower edition of the ASV was very popular. In 1950 the Watchtower embarked on its own version of the NT which was released as the NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The rank and file at this time would rip out the NT section of the ASV and bind it together with the NWT NT so that they had a continuous version that used Jehovah in both the NT and the Old.

In 1960 the Lockman foundation then purchased the rights to publish the ASV and promptly began a revision. This soon came to be known as the NASV and this is without doubt the most scholarly translation from a conservative, literal point of view. It is still selling very well and is second only to the NIV in world wide sales. The NASV reverted to the traditional use of LORD in the text basically because the word "Jehovah" which is neither Hebrew nor English, being a mongrel hybrid, does not represent any advancement in theological studies.

In 2001 the NASV was itself revised and since it was only available on the World Wide Web, it is come to be known as the WEB translation. Which is an acronym that can also stand for World English Bible. This latest version of the ASV uses Yahweh in the text of the OT. It can be downloaded for free from various sites such as E-Sword.

The Watchtower no longer possesses the copyright to the ASV and it can itself be downloaded from different sites.

29

How long is a "generation"?

by cameo-d in

there seems to be so much controversy over defining what exactly a 'generation' is.. i have heard it said a generation is 25 years; some claim it is 40 years; and some even say 70 years.. i think the scriptures describe the 70 years as life expectancy, with mightiness 80 years or something like that.. i don't think it is accurate to define the length of generation as the same length of time as life expectancy, but i could be wrong.. .

anyway, i am wondering if anyone has ever done the math on this scriptural clue:.

matthew 1:17 so all the generations from abraham to david are fourteen generations; and from david until the carrying away into babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into babylon unto christ are fourteen generations.. if one follows the lineage and a date timeline, would this give more accurately the approximation of a generation?.

moggy lover

Probably a good rule of thumb would be to go back to the original source which is Jesus' words at Matt 24:34. According to the Watchtower's chronology, these words were spoken in 33 AD and were initially fulfilled in 70 AD when all those hearing those words of Christ were very much alive. They were the original source generation who would never die till they saw the fulfillment of Mat 24.

33 AD - 70 AD makes 37 years which if rounded to a time of 40 years would give a fair summary of what a biblical generation would be.

Indeed for several years this was official Watchtower theology. Note CT Russell's view that Christ came invisibly in 1874, and then 40 years later, or a generation later, the end would come, in 1914.

For many years Freddy Franz maintained this view, till, after 1955, [40 years after 1914] some quick soft shoe shuffling had to be done. Ray Franz in his book "Crisis of Conscience" gives us an insight into the dilemma that faced the GB in the mid 1980s as they strove to get this albatross off their backs.

It is obvious that the two periods that Watchtower theology has determined were involved in the fulfillment of Matt 24, the first century and our modern times, just don't gel.

The first century was indeed one generation 33-70 AD

Our present time has already lasted 96 years almost a century 1914-2010.

One would need to be inhibited by a certain all-pervasive blindness to miss the fact that something has gone goofy with Watchtower explanations for Matt 24.

7

Michael Jackson planned to convert to Islam, according to his brother Jermaine.

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

by philippa bourke author end jan 22, 2010, 3:20 gmt.

michael jackson planned to convert to islam, according to his brother jermaine.. jermaine alleges the late king of pop, 50, was close to converting shortly before he died suddenly last june.. jermaine himself converted to islam in 1989 after being raised with his siblings as a jehovah's witness.. michael was in the process of studying islam and was moved by its teachings when he spent a year living in the bahrain region, jackson said.. he said: 'i believe that islam would have helped him a lot.

had he converted, he would have been spared all the problems he had been subjected to throughout his life.'.

moggy lover

I did hear that his religious convictions were under a cloud, but I take it he was buried according to Watchtower custom, whatever that means.

6

Blast from the past! The Adelaide News (australia), July 15 1946

by Aussie Oz in

moggy lover

It needs to be remembered by non Aussies that the expression "High Court" [capital "H" capital "C"] is the equivalent of the US "Supreme Court".

Before Australia became federated as one nation on Jan 26, 1901, it was a loose collection of six states, independant of each other, with each having its own "Supreme Court" as is current today. When federation came into being it was suggested that calling the highest court of appeal in the land "The SupremeCourt" would cause confusion, since there were six of these. Thus the name "High Court" was adopted as a replacement.

Therefore any decision made by the Australian High Court would have national authority, although, as in this instance, local considerations were being considered.

10

WHY 12 tribes in Rev don't match original 12 tribes, accidentally ran into the answer.

by EndofMysteries in

before i go further, has anyone researched or ever found an explanation?

i am into other topics now but fell upon some actual reasons.

i believe the wt just says it's symbolic and since it's not the same 12 as originally, that it proves it's symbolic.

moggy lover

Evidently not, TD.

The tribe of Dan suffered the same fate as the other Northern tribes when they were defeated and deported by Tiglat-pileser in 732 BC. A remnant did survive and made its way south, but by the 1C AD had been complertely absorbed by the tribe of Judah.

An early Church Father of the early 2C AD, Irenaeus had a somewhat eccentric view for why Dan was omitted from the tribal count in Rev 7. Basing his argument on the LXX text of Jer 8:16 "From Dan shall we hear the noise of his swift horses", he concluded that the future Antichrist was to come from the tribe Dan!

[Quoted from "Against Heresies" Book 5, Chap 30 verse 2, as found in the New Bible Dictionary, page 289]

6

The president sit in with the G/B?

by Aussie Oz in

this is made as a reply to a facebook question (not by me) as to why the current president is not of the anointed:.

why is your new president not anonted even tho the watchtower says all presidents should be announted ???

as for the current watchtower presendent; you see back when bro.

moggy lover

It appears that the position of "President" of the WBTS has been demoted to being simply one of symbolic ceremonial and titular importance. Its administrative authority has been castrated, divorcing it from from any real functional responsibility within the wider body politic of the Watchtower system. Once all-powerful, and capable of bestowing patronage on others, the man in that position now takes orders from the Chairman of the GB.

That is the REAL position of power in the Watchtower system today.

50

Photo of GB 2006

by Titus in

jw
friends

please, compare this photo with the gb photo in the book "bear thorough witness".

gb2006.

isn't that the same photo?.

moggy lover

WOW!

If it IS the same foto then this will remind us old timers of the bad ole Cold War days when the commies used to erase perons who had no more relevance to the movement. You would see the Official Foto, in which we glimpse this sea of GB [oops, I mean Politburo] faces standing at some interminable parade or other, and then, when someone becomes an "unperson" the official foto is doctored to exclude the poor sap.

Since getting all of these guys together at any one gathering is like herding cats, they would never have had the patience to sit through two foto opportunities, wearing the same gear, and smiling the same smiles, the powers that be must have decided to do some "unpersoning" of their own.

5

Feb. 15, 2010 WT 'The Spirit and the Bride'

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

february 15, 2010 wt: the spirit and the bride keep on saying "come!".

paragraph 7: "the members of the bride class--the spirit-anointed christians--are the first to extend the invitation to come.

well, the bride is not saying "come!

moggy lover

Good post, and well researched, sd7. One wonders if the guys who write this bunk actually believe what they write.

The exposition presented in that Wt study article, taken from Rev 22:17 is without doubt one of the worst explanations of this portion of Scripture that it has been my misfortune to read, and I have read some doozies, believe me.

The "translators" of the NW "T" were, according to the foreword of the original edition of the NW"T", especially conscious of "rendering" the various Greek verbs in the Sacred Text according to their grammatical syntax. If this is true, then the expositors who attempt to interpret what the NW"T" are certainly unaware of this need.

The verb "say" in Rev 22:17 is the plural, thus "The Spirit + the Bride SAY...." This means that two groups of persons are actually articulating the words that follow. According to the text these two groups are: 1 The Spirit + 2 The Bride. The real order must be kept in mind. It is the Spirit who is in control, not the Bride. Thus it is the Spirit, along with the Bride who throw out the invitation to everlasting life.

But in the exposition, so kindly provided by these writers of the Watchtower, only one group is doing the talking, the secondary one at that, the Bride.

First these writers reverse the order: The Bride + The Spirit SAY, then they make the verb singular: The Bride THROUGH the spirit SAYS

Then they have the gall to ask a thoroughly unnecessary question: "How does this deity of theirs, "jehoober" USE the holy spirit? Evidently this god uses this spirit to "open the hearts and minds of this "bride class" to understand his word.

Thus they would like the rank and file followers of the Watchtower to read this text as if it says: "The Bride class, having its collective mind and heart opened by the spirit says:....." thus the invitation to everlasting life, and its consequences, are an exclusive prerogative of this "bride class"

A greater degree of arrogance is hardly capable of being imagined.

But then one can hardly expect anything better from writer[s] who can't tell an indicative from a subjunctive. Anyone who can so casually misread "Will" for "may" as in "Millions now living MAY never die" is suspect.

And you are quite right, and this is something I missed. The invitation "since 1918" was only to life in heaven, if the writers wanted to get their facts right, they should have said that this invitation to life on earth forevever has been in operation only from 1936.

Therefore, it appears that, prior to 1936, no fulfillment of Rev 22:17 was in operation, this despite all the efforts of Russell and his generation. Russell might as well have continued selling mens jocks and socks, since he was of no theological use.

Pity that such nonsense could be taken so seriously by so many for so long.

4

I want to get myself a good bible lexicon...

by quietlyleaving in

.. with the many gift vouchers i've received.

i have a vague memory that narkissos mentioned a couple recently.

i have not been able to find the post.

moggy lover

It depends on how much you are willing to spend.

The best of the NT Greek Lexicons that you can get in a single volume is the "Bauer-Danker-Arnt-Gingrich Lexicon of the Greek NT and Early Christian Literature" [BDAG for short]. It is comprehensive, authoratative, and has all the hallmarks of expert scholarly opinion. It is also fairly expensive and, running into 900 double column pages, it comprises some half a million words of text. So it is a hefty tome.

Even more comprehensive but in two substantially large volumes is the Liddell and Scott Greek-English lexicon. It is in fact so vast in scope that its effectiveness for a NT Greek investigator becomes blunted. It incorporates much information on Greek words that are not relevant to NT Studies. You might be better advised to google "Liddell and Scott" on the web, where it has graciously been made available by a programme called Persius, so you will be able to read it online whenever you require.

Also in a multi volume edition is the "Exegetical Dictionary Of the NT" by Baltz and Schneider. It is published by Eerdmans of Grand Rapids, Michigan in an English translation. It is not as expensive but still will not be in the midium price range.

Single volume lexicons that are available and which are more accessible include: Abbott-Smith's NT Greek Lexicon, Thayer's NT Greek Lexicon, the single volume " New International Dictionary of NT Theology"* and the single volume "Theological Dictionary of the NT"** by Gerhardt Kittel.

Less expensive but probably better for the beginner in NT Greek are several English Dictionaries/Lexicons of the Greek NT. These include "Strong's" Lexicon which has recently been published in an expanded edition, which incorporates many amplified notes on several Greek NT words. When you go into your local Christian bookstore ask for: "Strongs Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words" It was published by Thomas Nelson in 2001.

Vine's is a standard and should be on every shelf of the Greek NT student. But just as good and, being more up-to-date, probably even better, are: "Renn's Expository Dictionary of Bible Words" and Mounce's "Complete Dictionary of NT Words". Zondervan Books has published a moderately priced dictionary of Bible words, called "The Encyclopedia of Bible Words". It was however published in 1991 and may be harder to secure.

Actually Zondervan's have published three separate NT Interlinears that have parallel texts such as KJV/NASB, NIV/KJV, and the NASV/NIV. The beauty of these are that they have, at the back, a substantial lexicon detailing every Greek word in the NT text.

Similar to this is "The Word Study Greek-English NT" by Prof Paul McReynolds. McReynolds is professor of NT Greek at Pacific Christian College in Fullerton, Ca, and he has arranged the text in such a way that it has: 1 A literal translation of each Greek word,

2 A coded number that corresponds to Strong's numerical system,

3 A comprehensive lexicon that explains the nuances of the word in a given context, 4 An amazingly comprehensive concordance that lists every single occurence of the word in the NT,

4 A coded reference that enables the student to tap into more comprehensive works such as BADG, Kittel and others. If one has any of these books, navigating through them could be a daunting task, so McReynolds certainly helps here.

AMG Publishers have released several comprehensive English/Greek lexicons which are the best buy for their comprehensiveness. "The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the NT" edited by Prof Spiros Zodhiates is worth its weight in gold, as are the other companion volumes, "The Word Study OT" and "The Word Study NT"

The world of Greek NT studies is expanding exponentially and probably as I speak some of the works I mentioned may have become obsolete, to be replaced by others!! [Just kidding] But the market is huge, and you would need to spend some time browsing in a Christian Bookstore near you.

As far as the OT is concerned the three standard works that I can reccomend are: Gersenius' Hebrew Lexicon, The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon***, and the "Teological Wordbook of the OT" Harris, Archer and Waltke. This a convenient one volume edition of their larger work which was originally published in 4 volumes. This larger work is, unfortunately for copyright reasons, not available in Australia, so I cannot comment on the printed edition. However, the CD Rom version of the whole work is available through Pradis Software at a moderate price.

Hope this helps

*This work was originally published as a three volume set, but the Abridged edition is availabe in a single volume edition and is designed for the beginner. It is published by Zondervan Books.

** This work originally came out in a large 12 volume set, but is now available in a single volume edition. Again, for copyright reasons this is not available in Aussie, but if you live in the USA, it is not difficult to get.

*** The BDB Hebrew Lexicon is substantially a revision of Gesenius, and it incorporates newer information that has come to light.

9

Re Gabriel's answer at Daniel 9

by Doug Mason in

daniel 9:24-27 records the answer to daniels prayer by angel gabriel.

interpretations of these verses have resulted in a wide range of interpretations.. .

my suggestions are intended to provide parameters that may assist when an attempt is made to unearth the meaning of gabriels answer.. .

moggy lover

Nice work, Doug.

You have a PM.